Life Pivots, Breakups, and Listening To Your Gut with Kelsey Formost Artwork

Ebb and Glow

Welcome to Ebb and Glow — the podcast that shows you how everyday people are taking on life’s ups and downs and coming out better than before. Your host, Jenelle Tremblett, will be with you weekly and with special guests, to chat about everything from careers, relationships, mindset, and everything in between. Are you tired of only seeing the highlight reel? Me too. This podcast will instead be peeking behind the curtain to reveal all the steps, pep talks, and glasses of wine that must happen before we become strong, confident, and resilient.

All Episodes

Ebb and Glow

Life Pivots, Breakups, and Listening To Your Gut with Kelsey Formost

February 28, 2023 • Jenelle Tremblett • Episode 123

#123: Kelsey talks about ending a long term relationship, switching careers multiple times, and feeling burnout in her life. She did many months of soul searching and therapy to cure her people pleasing and codependency.

Today, Kelsey Formost is the founder of Magic Words Copywriting and an award-winning marketing expert who teaches entrepreneurs how to write words that sell (without sounding sales-y).

Kelsey's Ebbs

Losing jobs
Being cheated on
Breakups
Scared to bring up conflict in her relationships
Co dependency and people pleasing
Burnout

Kelsey's Glows

Understanding patterns in your life and relationships
Having the courage to make changes
Identifying your integrity and intuition
Understanding the law of attraction
Finding clients that are her perfect match
Being in a healthy vibrant relationship

0:00

Welcome to the ebb and glow podcast. I'm your host, Janelle Tremlett. And I'm a firm believer that even when life doesn't go as planned, it is taking you exactly where you're meant to be on this podcast. I'm here to help you finally release control of what you think you want and begin to just trust in the ebbs and flows of life. Each week, I will show you how to build that positive mindset radiate with self confidence and cultivate an unshakeable resilience. Let me prove to you that even when life ebb. You will glow. Hello everyone. And welcome to episode 1 23 of the Eben globe podcast. I think you're going to love this episode today because we talk a lot about having the courage to make changes in your life. Knowing when you had that gut feeling in your stomach, that something just isn't what you intended it to be or what you were expecting it to be. And just that inner knowing of thinking. This isn't it. We've all been there, whether it's a job, whether it's the location you're living in, whether it's a relationship, we've all had that time in our life where we thought. I don't know what it is, but whatever this is, it's not for me. And it's sometimes so hard to have the courage to make that change when nothing is inherently wrong, where you can't pinpoint something to say, Hey, this is the reason why we have to break up because you did X, Y, and Z. Oh, this is what happened at work. So I have to leave this job. Sometimes, and it's crazy to me. Why don't we think that that gut feeling is enough of a reason to make the change? But today's episode with Kelsey foremost is going to give you that extra bit of encouragement to maybe make the change in your life that you've been thinking about for a long time. So our guests today, Kelsey foremost is the founder of magic words. Copywriting is an award-winning marketing expert who teaches entrepreneurs, how to write words that sell without sounding salesy. Kelsey has been featured in publications like business insider refinery, 29. At age and glamour and has spoken at some of the top marketing conferences in the country, like HubSpot's inbound and south by Southwest. Kelsey's courses and templates have helped thousands of business owners write their own high converting copy, but Kelsey's real mission is to help entrepreneurs stop people, verbal, vomiting, all over the internet, and instead use their voice to start converting readers into buyers and raving fans. So, what you'll learn about Kelsey in this episode is she's dealt with a lot of rejection and changes in her life. she says that the moment was new year's Eve 2017, where she was in her childhood bedroom days after losing her fancy staff writer, job, finding out the one had been cheating and she was about to move into her first solo apartment. She said she was the walking definition of burnout. She was hollow, frozen and scared with no idea what was next. Cut to a few months of serious soul searching. And she found copywriting and it was the first time in a long time that she actually felt excited about something. And once she started connecting with other women in business, she really sparked a wildfire real quick inside of her. When I asked her kind of how she navigated all these changes in her life. She said she built up confidence with smaller gigs. So she also niched down and she did some deep self work such as therapy in order to recover from codependency. You'll learn throughout this episode that Kelsey had to go through all of these moments in her life to be the person that she is today. And Kelsey says that by going through all of that, she was able to quickly identify when she was in and out of her integrity. Now, if something feels off to her, she says she leaves way faster and there's no second guessing herself. She also understands now the law of attraction and that you really get back what you put out there. And she also learned from having clients that really weren't the right match for her. That, it was all about learning and finding the ones that were right for her. So with all of that being said, I'm excited for you to listen to today's episode. And if you gain value from anything in this episode, either let me know or share it with a friend who will also gain value. Okay, wherever you are today, have a fabulous day and enjoy the episode. Kelsey, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for being. It's gonna be really tough for me in this episode to stay on brand and ask you about your personal life and not default to business marketing sales. It's gonna be tough. It's gonna come out regardless, but I feel like I. Yeah, I maybe I, I just need to like pitch you myself to a bunch of other podcasts cuz I love listening to your episodes. That is so nice. Thank you. But it'll be nice to like have an episode for you that kind of talks about the behind the scenes, the background, the more personal side of it for you personally. Completely, and that's why I'm so happy you're doing this particular show because I think a lot of creative hearted people, a lot of heart forward, purpose-driven people especially who have their own businesses. It's a little less emotional lift to just focus on the business stuff. But really where the magic happens is here in what you're talking about, which is the personal life, the difficult moments, the overcoming of challenges. This is where. It's the make or break. So that's why I'm so excited to talk to you today from a business perspective as well. It's people want to work with people they relate to, they trust that they can see themselves in. Right now I'm listening to um, Katie Keurig's audiobook, like I'm listening to the audio version of it, and she's talking about basically the, the co-anchor that was before her, she's saying, Because this woman on air before her was so perfect and put together, there was a lot of people that said they felt like they needed to get ready for the day before they turned on the news. Wow. Psychologically, they didn't feel good enough to. Watch this woman on the news because she was almost too put together. Oh man. That makes me think about fascinating. It's fascinating and it also makes me think about social media and mental health. Yes. Because how we, that is how we consume the news now. Mm-hmm. I mean, majority of us don't sit down at 6:00 PM every night to watch the six o'clock news. I don't, don't know how, I don't know how to access it. Right. Like who has television? What is time? But social media is how we consume our news and our information, and we pick and choose, and then the algorithm learns what we like and it serves us things right? So if we are if we don't practice self-love, we can literally shame ourselves from the moment we wake up and open our phones and we open our Instagram or our. And we might see people who quote unquote have it all together and we forget. We're not conscious of the fact that we're watching highlight reels. Yes. That are extremely curated, literally filtered. Mm-hmm. the look like they are. More quote unquote, traditionally attractive, that they are quote unquote, traditionally successful, richer, whatever. Like there. It's the same idea of what you're talking about with Katie Couric, making yourself a human. Before you're a brand or an educator or whatever you're coming online to do is vital. Yeah. It's vital not just to the health of your business, but to your mental health as a human being first. Mm-hmm. I'm noticing that in doing content for real estate as well. Like a lot of the times, even like a few weeks ago, I would like take one day and do like a lot of like nice content, kind of this same like look where I'm sitting right now, and I realized, No, let's record a video. Like literally as I'm at the showing, if I'm not with clients lately, what I've been doing is like literally setting up the phone in the kitchen and be like, Hey, I'm in this building right now. Right? And they can, you can tell that like this is in the moment. This is like if someone was gonna work with me, this is how I look. Like it's not the perfect curls. It's like I just walked up three flights of stairs and like, this is how I'm gonna look. You know what I mean? Completely. Well, So for your particular business in real estate, that's a very scary place for people if they've never bought property before or if they've been burned or they feel like they're not enough, right? There's so much emotion that people are walking into that with. So if they feel like you're approachable and you're gonna answer their questions so they don't feel stupid or less than or scared, that would make me choose a real estate. A thousand times over someone with like a perfect Barbara Walters quiff and you know, a fancy logo. Yeah. And like top sales for every single year I've ever been in business. Like that's great as well. But like, do you know what that tells me as a consumer? Is that you. Not that you're successful in helping people, but that you're successful in charging people. Like that's fair. Like when people use it depends on your business of course, but um, it depends on what client you want too. Yeah. Yeah. And if you are like representing a seller or a buyer, that definitely makes sense. Cuz if you're trying to sell your house, you want the most money possible. Mm-hmm. But if you're trying to buy a house, it's the opposite. Right. Someone that you can hang out with and approachable and Yes. Spend a lot of time with. Yes, exactly. So all this to say, Who you are as a human really, really matters, really matters. And no one, even if you're going for the luxury, top tier, high ticket stuff, those people, it doesn't absolve you from having to be a human. Mm-hmm. no one can rest on statistics. Nobody. I know, I know. it's interesting the type of business that you run in terms of like your copywriting side of your business, because I heard in a podcast, are you back in corporate world? I was and I left again. Okay. So it's a really interesting story. Yeah, he, let's dive into that. So let's, let's paint the picture for. Sure. Kelsey was an actress for 10 years and screenwriter, right? Correct. And in shows like New Girl, modern Family, so if you watch the video version of this podcast, you may recognize her. Then you ended up creating your own business in terms of copywriting and helping entrepreneurs write their own sales copy. Then you went back into the corporate world and now you're back entrepreneur again. Walk me through this. Yes. So you are correct. I was an actress and a screenwriter for 10 years and on paper was very successful. And like did all of the glamorous Hollywood things like Grammy parties walking red carpets, like crazy, crazy stuff. I can't even believe I have the stories that I have. Mm. But increasingly over time, I realized that even though I loved the craft of acting still in some ways, I had gotten stuck in a path that I thought I was supposed to continue walking. Not one that I really wanted to continue walking, and I wanna call that out specifically because if you're listening to this, I have a hunch that you might be in a place where you feel like, you've spent too much time. Yeah. Too much money, too much education. Mm-hmm. on something to let it go. Even if you have a pull in your gut that it's no longer the thing that you want to be spending your time doing. And the faster you can process that and get out of the thing that no longer feels good to you, the better. Your life is gonna be like across the board. Everyone I've ever talked to has had that experience. So for me the industry of acting, the industry in Hollywood was so toxic for so long that it was almost like getting out of an abusive relationship. I believe it. Yeah. And but one gift that it gave me was, I never, for 10 years, was in a traditional nine to five. I was always scrappy side hustling, like figuring out how to pay my bills. Mm-hmm. in between acting jobs, right? Because acting looks really glamorous on the surface. Like I could be on TV and be making maybe a thousand dollars. For the whole year. That's, I'm just hoping every, every wannabe actress, or every aspiring actress, I should say, is just waiting for that big movie rule or big show rule, but yeah, like to make ends meet. And you're also, if you're wanting to be an actress, you're living in the most expensive cities in the world, that's so true. Like literally the worst places you could be in living with probably 5, 6, 7 people in your late twenties, early thirties, and having multiple, multiple, multiple jobs to be able to still. Run towards your passion, so yeah, right. My God, it takes like so much like resiliency and grit. Resilience is a great word, and man, did it teach me about rejection, which I'm sure we'll get into later, but, To speak to the path that it set me on because I had not ever done the nine to five thing. I knew in my gut that wasn't for me either. And so when I sat down to think, okay, well if it's not acting, then what is it? Like what is it? What was it about acting that made me feel alive? At the beginning. Mm-hmm. And long story short, what I came to was it was having people recognize themselves in my work, especially in writing. So when somebody saw something that I was in and they were like, oh my God, that's me, or That's my brother, or, that's exactly how I felt when that guy dumped me. That was the thing that made me go, oh, I love that. It's the human connection piece. And at the same time, this was back in 2018, there was this huge boom of online businesses getting started by women because women were freaking. Tired and over it of the wage gap, the gender wage gap. And so women were starting their own businesses in droves, and I do not think it was an accident that Me Too happened in 2017 and the online business boom happened in 2018. A lot of women are probably thinking like I I'll to go do this on. Yeah. Well, because there was this huge shift in just feeling like it was okay to even admit that you weren't happy. Right? Because Me Too was about a lot more than sexual harassment. Yeah. It was about equal treatment. Right. So around that time and talk about, talk about a weird time to be in the entertainment industry. Yeah, I bet. Um, yeah. And so all of these women were starting businesses and I was so inspired by them and I was watching people like Amy Porterfield and Marie Forlio and Jenna Kutcher. You remind me a lot of Amy Porterfield. Like what? Like looking at your business and how it's set up and like listening to you on podcasts today. I was thinking like, she gives me Amy Porterfield. Ah, shucks. What a compliment. Damn. Thank you. Amy Porterfield, shout out if you're listening and need a copywriter. she's great. She, she gives a lot of really valuable information away for free, which I really, really admire her for that. I think she really is making the world better. So I was watching all of these businesses get built and I was thinking, what gift of mine can. Help this ball keep rolling. Like I love this momentum of women starting their own companies, hiring other women, like just completely innovating a totally new. section of the economy. Yeah. Like the digital economy was like so lifted up by these women, and I was like, okay, screenwriting acting. You kind of have to brand yourself every time you create a character. Every time. I wonder if I could. Use these skills to help other women start their businesses. And long story short, found copywriting through a friend, and it was like all of the cartoon light bulbs, Bing, ping, ping, ping, ping went off over my head. And for about a year, year and a half, I was just freelance copywriting. And during that time, a C M O for a very fancy corporate tech company. Mm-hmm. Was watching my work in the background. I had no idea. They were just never know who's watching and following and waiting, waiting for the right moment to, to go in. Cuz a lot of times it's so easy to start the business. It's so easy to become a real estate agent. It's so easy. The barriers to entry are so low. But it, from a customer standpoint, I wanna watch to see who's still around one year. How serious are you about this? Yes. So she was probably just watching. Exactly. Exactly. Gosh, you're so spot on. Which is why consistency is so important, but it's also such a challenge because we as entrepreneurs or creative people, we may not see or we don't see, right? Like we don't know who never misses a story I know. Or who. Like saves our, our reels all the time. Yeah. Or who subscribes to our email list and always opens it like, unless we're really, really in the analytics, but still we're not gonna be. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you don't know. You don't know what could be. People are watching what could come. Mm-hmm. you don't know what could come of your work. So I got a message from the C M O and they were like, Really wanna hire you to write the website for this company. So I did. I was doing that at the time of freelance. Are you flipping out when you first get that? Yes and no because at that point I had been a freelance copywriter for over a year, and I had worked with some pretty big businesses. Okay, so you're confident. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was confident, but I also was very clear with them like, Hey, this is my style of writing. It is not about you, it's about your ideal customer. So you're gonna have to do a lot of like digging deep and mental health shit, which as a room full of white men might be a little uncomfy. I'm gonna ask you some tough questions if you're not willing to answer them or you don't have answers to them. I'm not your copywriter. Good. Thank you, which, you know, took some learning to be able to go into a room and do you need a lot of proof points in your own business and your own success to be able to say this, see this amazing offer and be like, I might not be the right fit and be okay to walk away? Yes. The power of saying no. So many people are afraid to alienate, especially if there's money on the table. It is one of the most valuable skills I have ever learned saying, no it's tough. I'm dealing with it now. Like I am trying to steer clear of some of the business that I would've accepted even three months ago and being ready to say no, and trusting that the business that I do want is gonna come in. Hmm. Yes. Yes. It's, it's uncomfy, it's emotional. Yeah. It's uncomfy, it's emotional, it's uncomfy. There's a lot of self-worth stuff that comes up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, and it also is really amazing how naturally you start to attract people who are willing to do that work and repel people who aren't. And the repelling is just as valuable. Yes. As the attracting it is. I'm already noticing a shift and it's like I am attracting more of the clientele that I want. And it's like, where were you six months ago? And I was telling the universe I would've taken on anything. Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's such a good point. You know, that's such a good point. Like the energy that you're putting out, money is energy. Yeah. I know we're getting into the woo here. No, no, no. Like go to any of my episodes. The episode this week is all about money scarcity, so, oh, damn. I'm excited to listen to it. Yeah, listen. So how long did you have your business and tell me some of the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur. Well, we just talked about. Learning the confidence of knowing your ideal client and be able to say no to a, role or an offer that you would've jumped at a year before. Mm-hmm. Yes. So let me close the loop Yeah. On this story. So I, they did hire me to make the website. And then afterwards they were like, you're really fucking good at what you do. Can we hire you full-time? And they ended up, I was like, okay, I'm gonna quote you an absurd amount of money plus all these benefits. Technically I. I'll be a full-time employee, but I don't wanna work full-time. I wanna choose my own hours. Mm-hmm. And I also want it to be in my contract that I can build my own business. Magic words, copywriting in tandem at the same time on the side. And they said yes to all of that. And also, here's more money. So I said yes, and I worked there for three and a half years almost. But the thing that changed, I'm so grateful, like it forwarded me some stability. I learned a lot about like multimillion dollar marketing funnels and like, man, if you are a solopreneur, I just want to tell you, like from someone who has seen behind the scenes of a multimillion dollar company. It is like 10 full-time jobs just to do marketing. Yes. So don't compare yourself to marketing funnels of people who have that type of, not just income, but spending allocated firm marketing and advertising you it. It's a fools game. It's a game for fools. There's so much shaming that can be avoided. Just personal shame numbers. Yeah, yeah. If you knew the nu, the money that gets wasted. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. So I used to manage certain marketing channels for HelloFresh Canada. Mm. So, you know, and I ran only three of all of the, so basically our marketing was split between brand and growth. So growth, new customers, brand, obviously brand. Mm-hmm. And I ran three of the channels of growth and there was so many, and like the budgets, I was personally managing a lot of money and I didn't even have the big, big channels. Like I had three of like just, I did influencer podcast and affiliate. Well, okay. Yeah, so those are big two, but like, it wasn't like direct mail or like it wasn't as big numbers as someone was working with or paid social, but like, like emails. Yeah. And that's why I'm not like super hard on myself when I'm running my own marketing stuff, cuz it's like, good, okay, if I didn't create this crazy email funnel this week, it's like, Most companies, someone has a full email team. Yes. Not just one person plus every other aspect of marketing. Preach girl. Hallelujah, It's so true. It's so true. But continue. Yeah. Yeah. So when, like at what point did you realize this is event anymore? because that's what I like that theme about you. You, you really notice within yourself like, ah, this isn't it anymore. I don't know what's next, but I know kind of this chapter is, is about to close. Yes, yes. And it's a skill. Yes. It's a skill to learn how to notice when that is happening. Mm-hmm. And I'm very blessed to say that the. between when I get an idea that it is not the thing, and me actually taking action to leave has gotten shorter and shorter and shorter over the years, and especially with a lot of work that I've done around codependency and people pleasing, which I'm more than happy to talk about here. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, To abridge the story, the boss that brought me in who I love to the ends of the earth, I would do anything for this person. He left the company to go to do something even more amazing, and I'm so happy for him. But when he left, there was this vacuum and somebody knew, came in who had little two zero, I would say closer to zero trust in the employees to do their. How did they say? It blows my mind. How do you think the company ran before you came in? Right, Right. So there was a lot of without being blameful at all. What I will say is the energy really shifted from something that was exciting and creative and vibrant to something that was like very task-oriented and like, check the boxes and nothing could go out without like three layers of approvals. and everyday person's worst nightmare. Worst nightmare. Worst nightmare. If you want creativity, you have to foster an environment where people are able to be vulnerable. Yeah. You have to foster an environment where people are encouraged to fail. Mm-hmm. because the best marketing isn't the shit that's like, here's the cookie cutter, whatever. Mm-hmm. It's when people are like, let's go to what people are asking for. Like, what are our ideal customers asking for? Yeah. How can we create a marketing strategy fed by the questions people are already asking? Right. That's how I like to work. Hmm. I, I did not work well in that environment. My mental health really suffered. And it became clear pretty quickly like, okay, this is not sustainable anymore. We have to come up with an exit plan. And yet, even though I have done so much work, On all of this stuff. It still felt like golden handcuffs and I had a really hard time letting go of that paycheck and letting go of that healthcare. You don't have to worry about this in Canada. You lucky moose? Well, I do. I don't have healthcare, but obviously we have public, but it's like I still don't have my own like insurance and stuff. Yeah. Wow. What a, but yeah, it's a lot less of an issue that you gotta. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, if something happened and I had to give the ambulance, like, I'm not worried about me being broke for six months. Right. And for us it would be like, well there goes 10 grand. Like, which is insanity? It's insanity. So it was, you know, it's a real, it's, it's a very real um, I'm not trying to minimize people who need to stay in jobs that they don't. Because it's real like having that security in this, in the way that society is currently set up. I get it now more than I ever got it before. So I think about the people with kids. You don't have kids, do you? I don't have kids, and I do that all the time. Yeah, you can't leave something you don't like. You can't. Or you have to take a longer time building what I like to call the off-ramp, right? Yeah. So if you are in a place where you're feeling that feeling that this is not right, and I wanna get out. Don't worry if you don't know exactly how that's gonna happen yet. Hmm. All you have to do is start to think about what your off-ramp might look like and how long that off-ramp might take you. For me, the off-ramp was about three months long. Of like really starting to plan ahead and be like, okay, I'm going to wait for like this project to be wrapped up and then I'm going to talk to these people and then I'm going to maybe apply for other things and or see about restarting my own business. It's a process, it's not a trigger. So, if you feel at all scared about making a big shift in your life, think of it as an off ramp instead of. Jumping off a cliff, I mean, I'm not even making any new changes in my life coming up soon, but even that gave me a little bit more comfort. And I'm not even having plans to jump on the next cliff time soon, but I'm like, you're right. Cuz I'm the type of person I jump off cliffs with. Mm-hmm. absolutely no plan in place. When I make changes, when I move places, when I change jobs, I'm the type that'll quit a job with no backup, just to be like, fuck you, like kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I don't even think about myself, but yeah, I'm like this off-ramp idea. Right. That seems a lot more logical. Right? Well, I wanna be clear, there's nothing wrong with jumping off the cliff or getting out, like if you're in a toxic, bad situation, jump like, get out. Yeah. But if you are in a place where you're feeling that golden handcuff situation and there's anxiety there. It might help you to think about it as an off-ramp, you know? I think you had your business still running cause you created a lot of passive income streams and you were still building it. Correct. So as part of that initial contract, which by the way, anybody, if you're a freelancer and you end up taking a job like this, people are willing to do this for you. So this is a practical advice tip. Be very upfront. Hey, I have this side hustle. I don't want to stop that side hustle. I wanna be very clear with you that if you follow me on social media, you'll probably see things about this side hustle. If you're on my email list during business hours. Exactly. Some C companies do not approve of that. Right. But if that's something that you as a worker have decided is a non-negotiable for you, then don't take that job agreed. Because then you'll be scared every time that you send out an email to your list that someone from work is on there. Yeah. It's anxiety producing. It is not worth it. Like just be honest and upfront about it and lucky for me and it's a pretty common practice in tech and especially with work from home. That people have side hustles. Yeah, it's a very normalized thing, and as long as you're upfront about it, there shouldn't be a problem. Agreed. So you're right. I was building my business, I was running my business in the background. I just wasn't taking one-on-one client work anymore. I was only selling my courses and my templates, but I was still making, you know, healthy five figures every six months to a year. 40 grand. 30 grand. Like it's another salary. In some ways it's another, yeah, it was supplemental income that allowed me to really save up for when my personal life blew up. Yeah. And I had to move twice and buy all new furniture after a divorce level breakup. So, I say all of that to be like, you never know. Like you might see somebody online who seems like they have it all together and they have all the answers. I promise you they don't. God. No. Those are probably the one ever. Absolutely. Don't That's right. That's right. And Coming back to being in business for myself was just as much a mental health decision and a healing decision and a personal life decision as it was a business decision. Yeah, and a financial decision. Right after I quit my corporate job, I took. Almost three months off where I was so burnt out, I could barely look at a computer. Like I actually got triggered opening a computer for the first four to six weeks. Oh. And yeah, it was bad. That's a different level of burnout. It was, and I felt a lot of shame around it. I feel you're not productive anymore, so where's your self? Exactly, and I don't resonate with that at all. exactly. And also there's the shame piece for me also had to do with why does everybody else seem to be okay? Why does everybody else seem to be satisfied with this traditional nine to five? Follow your career path, get your pension life, and it like I'm allergic to it. It gives me high as well. Yes. there is such shame in that I feel abnormal. Mm-hmm. and. It makes me want to hide. It makes me want to cry. It makes me angry. There. Grief. It's grief. Mm. Not just for any loss of. Anything that I had already, but also the loss of, oh man, I thought maybe I could do it. Like I thought maybe I could be in that golden handcuff situation and maybe I could fit into society a little bit better and belong a little bit more. It's a little easier that way. It is, it is. No one questions anything you. No one questions. There's a lot less emotional lift. You don't have to bring yourself to work as much. Unquestionably, unquestionably it is. Some people really enjoy that path. I am not one of those people. Yeah. And admitting that in a very deep, big way is hard. It's really hard. It's very othering, but. The flip side of it is now I'm getting to do the work I was born to do. I get to Do you feel the difference completely? Yeah. And now that I took serious time to actually heal from the burnout, like seeing therapists getting into embodiment work, going to co-dependence, anonymous really. Serious personal development work, which is a privilege to be able to have time, space, and finances to do that. Now that I have done that, I feel so much more alive. I feel so much more myself, and best of all, I'm helping people. So much more every day. Like I'm getting notes from my students in copy class, or I'm getting notes from potential copywriting clients or notes from people who I worked with three years ago who are like, I'm so glad you're back. Can you help me with my email funnel? And hearing real people tell me that stuff from my brain has helped them in their real. There's nothing better than that. There's nothing better than that, and you know, the finances will work themselves out. I agree. a prime example right now of the phrase zone of genius. Mm-hmm. When you're in your zone of genius and you're doing exactly what you're amazing at, the money's gonna come. Everything else will figure itself out. Mm-hmm. But if you're trying to do it all and trying to fit yourself into a box of where you we're never gonna fit. Yeah. You're gonna wonder why am not making any money? Why is nothing working? Yeah. And, but it does take like a leap of faith to. Take some time off and let it all go and really think, like you said from the beginning, what is my gift? Yeah. No one gives himself the time to even think about that. It's so true. I actually just put something up on Instagram about this where like, try easier. Mm-hmm. instead of try harder. Yeah. And remember it should be this hard. It shouldn't be that hard. But also what's really easy for you is really hard for somebody else I know. And I find my career. Effortless. Yeah, love it. Of course, by the end of the day I'm tired, like we're recording this midday where I did real estate prior to this. I'm running home to to do this with you, and then in an hour or so I'm going out again, I'm tired for sure, but when I'm doing it, it's so effortless. Yeah. And that's how I think it should feel like when you're working with your clients or creating courses or email funnels to be able to share with people, does it feel effortless? Totally. It's like I don't of your clients get hives thinking about trying to do that themselves. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that people forget that because they think for some reason they've internalized like it should be hard work. Yes. But actually what people should pay you for. Is what comes easy to you. Yeah. Because you would wanna pay somebody else for something that's really difficult for you. Mm-hmm. like, I don't wanna have to figure out real estate stuff when I'm ready to buy a house, I wanna pay somebody else to do it. Yeah. And trust that it's their zone of genius. Similarly, I, we're, we're about to be in tax season. I don't wanna touch my taxes. I feel completely overwhelmed and scared and drained. I'm gonna pay an accountant or CPA or whatever, like, please take this from me. They eat that stuff. Do your thing. Yes, they take, so it's like everybody listening to this, you have a skill or a skillset that is your zone of genius. You may not know what it is. You may have an inkling, you may be very sure. Mm-hmm. But no matter what it is, it's the thing that comes the most naturally to you. The funny part is too though, because it comes so easy and natural. The key to me and the key to what that I say to other people is when you're doing something and it's laughable that someone would pay you to do this because it's so easy, that's when you know you're doing the right thing. And because it comes so easy, we often assume it's just easy in general and easy to everyone else. Right. And it's not like you said, correct. Correct. Yeah. A hundred. Mic drop. I think entrepreneurship is so, so over glamorized, and like everyone needs to become an entrepreneur and it's like working for someone else is the perfect fit for a lot of people as well. So I love your story of like, work for myself, work for someone else, now work for myself. So you've seen it all and you've seen the pros and cons of. Yeah. Well, and I'm so happy that I did because if I had never had that traditional nine to five, I think I always would've wondered what if. Yes. Like what if after I graduated college I had done the traditional thing and just like gotten a job, like yeah, 90% of my classmates would, I have a husband and a house and 2.5 kids and a golden doodle by now. Like society tells me I'm supposed to have, I don't know. So, those are my clients, so yes. Yeah, we'd still would've met It's, which is great, like, yeah. Yeah. That's great for a lot of people. That's what I mean. I need those people too. Or like, I don't have a business. Right. I need people to be in that more suburban kind of style living. Right. And like, if that's what y'all want, great. Like there's no, I can't stress enough how there's not judgment on it at all. point being for me, if I had not tried both, if I had not tried entrepreneurship and traditional job. I always would've wondered what if either way, like if I had only ever had traditional jobs, I always would've wondered, what if I started my own business? And if I had only ever been an entrepreneur, I always would've wondered, I wonder what my life would be. Like, I wonder if I could do the nine to five thing. Yeah, and I think the other thing that people forget when applying for jobs, especially women, is that everything is negotiable. So the fact that you negotiate like, Hey, I'm gonna work full-time hours, but it's gonna kind of be on my time while I'm also building my own business. Mm-hmm. people don't think they can do that, but you can't if they, if someone wants you bad enough and someone's like headhunting you, you write the terms that's. That's right. Takes a lot of though It does. And there's this exercise. So fun fact, my mom's a therapist. Oh, cool. And when I was younger, she taught me this exercise of deciding what you will and won't do or what you do and don't want before you find yourself in the situation. So that when you find yourself in the situation, you already have the answer. It goes for applying for jobs as well. Know your non-negotiables with regards to hours, location, salary, benefits. What do you want? What's nice to have? What's need to have? If you already know that for yourself and you're in a hiring situation, whether it's a job you applied for blind or somebody's headhunting you, then you already know if you should take it or not. If you have those answers before you walk in the. You can apply that to relationships as well. Which gives me a really good segue because I do wanna ask you a couple questions about your, like you said, your basically divorce breakup. Mm-hmm. you guys were together for over three years, knew each other for 12 at this time, I guess probably, yeah. At that time. And again, your theme. I don't know. There's just something not right. Yeah. That is so hard, both in jobs and relationships that nothing is, I can't pick out something that's wrong. Mm-hmm. he's not cheating on me. People aren't treating me poorly at work, but it just doesn't feel right. That's the hardest thing to leave. It is, it is absolutely the hardest thing to leave. And it's the easiest to convince yourself that it's you. Yes. Easiest you. You're the problem. you're the problem. It's you. Because it's also, I mean, especially when let's stick to relationships. Mm-hmm. When we go on social media now, I mean the, the narrative that I'm hearing now is healthy isn't boring. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like just because it doesn't feel right, maybe it's just cuz healthy may, maybe it's because you are so used to dating narcissists that you need all this trauma, but, but it's so hard to decipher like, no, is this just not meant for me and I just want more and different? Or am I self sabotaging? It's so hard to know what roots, like your current scenario. It's so tricky. It's so tricky. How do you know? That's a great question. So to give a little bit of background, well, you know what initially gut knee jerk reaction is? I wanna say I started really examining patterns in my life of yours or the relationship. Oh, oh, okay. Of your life of mine. In particular romantic patterns, the types of partners I was choosing, the amount of time that I was spending with those partners. The. Perpetual decision to stay and quote unquote work it out instead of leaving situations that I knew deep down were not good situations. So in examining the pattern, that is what gave me the courage to leave something that on paper was perfect. Uhhuh, like on paper, my. Former relationship and he's a very wonderful person, which I think makes it harder. That's what we're talking about. That's the problem. Exactly. You're great, but just not great for me. That's right. Well, the big indicator for me that it was not healthy was how scared I was to bring up any kind of conflict. Ooh. Any kind of need any kind of, Question or desire. I was so scared of losing the relationship and losing love, that I just made myself into this extremely pliable, extremely pleasing version of myself that was not my real self, because it's what I thought this person wanted. Mm. And anytime I would show like the uglier quote unquote, or harder parts of myself, I would be met with silence or just a complete lack of an ability to hold space for that. Mm-hmm. And again, not the fault of the person. But not a match for me in terms of someone who was able to take accountability for things to examine things more deeply and to work towards having healthy conflict. Hmm. So what happened? On the surface was covid hit. I was supposed to move in with this person. I got stuck at home for five months with my mom, with no like, like I only had a suitcase. Finally got up to be with my partner in Seattle and we'd been apart for five months. Wow. Yeah. And so there was a lot of questions of like, was it covid or is it the relationship? Right. And gave it enough time. And enough space to figure out, it's not covid, it's the relationship. And that was really, really hard because there was a lot of love there. There was a lot of love there. Probably there still is. Like you're not saying anything bad about this person, so obviously there is a lot of love and respect. No, absolutely, absolutely. Lots of love and respect. And what I think. in talking about co-dependency and people pleasing, a very common theme is that we think that if I could just get this person to change my life would be great. That is that, right? It hits. It hits different. Yeah. And if you weren't who you were, Yeah. Life would be better if I could just get my partner to, yeah, fill in the blank. My life would be great, which puts all of your happiness on someone else. Mm-hmm. and on something that is completely out of your control. And what ends up happening is you then adjust your own behavior to try to, it's a, it's a shitty word, but it's true. You adjust your own behavior to try to manipulate your partner into acting or being a certain way. So I. Was changing the way that I dressed, the way that I spoke, how much I talked about money, how much I talked about my business. I said no to things that I really wanted to do, and I said yes to things I really didn't wanna do subconsciously because I thought that being that version of me changing myself and to fit that. Was going to get me love from my partner. And were there some, I mean, he's not, he's not completely blameless. Like yes, there were some things that were unhealthy on his part that I hope he deals with in his own way, on his own time. But the point of this conversation is it wasn't up to me. I had to stop trying to control. The situation and manipulate the situation to end up in a place where I decided that's when I was gonna be happy. Surrendering control. What was the immediate. Release or even relief once you got outta that relationship. Obviously getting out of relationship, like I, I have clients in real estate. I worked with a girl recently that I'm working with her because she lives with her partner and they're breaking up now. They have to sell their home. She has to get her own place. Like there's so much change and craziness, but so much, there's also so much to look forward to. So like what did that look like for you? What were the hard parts of like, oh God, and, but then also like, what was so much. The practical stuff was the hardest of stuff. Yeah. So out and Yes. But even making the decision, knowing that I was gonna have to do all of that crap, like, So much admin, like gorgeous, so much admin. I haven't cause my business to deal with this life stuff. Yeah, exactly. Ugh, there's so much I, I feel like, like you and I are similar. Like I hate that. Yeah. Like I just wanna like build my business. Now I have to deal with this mm-hmm. And so I uh, was hesitant to, I, it was very tempting for me. So in the moment, like during the couple of weeks that we were really discussing like, okay, is this it? Are we really breaking? There were a couple of opportunities where, and this answers your question, like, how did I, how did I know? How did I do it? What was the feeling? There were a couple of times where he said, well, what if we just put an ultimatum on it and said, we'll try for three more months. Like we'll really try for three months and then if it's still not good, we'll break up and aren't we at that point? Well, and yeah. And so my feeling in my body was, That's three more months of purgatory. That's three more months of not knowing where I stand. I am no longer willing to not know where I stand with my partner. That was it for me. So having that realization of, no, I don't wanna dive back in for three more months. I don't wanna put myself through that anymore. Was a huge relief. I think the relief comes in making the decision not in the physical aftermath of the decision itself. The relief comes when you internally fully believe in your gut. This is the right thing for me. That's when the relief came flooding in. And everything else that followed is its own story. I mean, moving to Santa Barbara and having my own house for the first time that I rented and getting to buy all my own furniture instead of having hand-me-downs or my partner's stuff that was such an exercise and rediscovering like, oh my God, what do I actually like? like, what do I actually want around me? Who do I actually want around me? I get this is, I'm at ground zero. I get to build this from scratch. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of fear and a lot of freedom. Yeah. In that and you know, now here I am, couple years later after. After the de, the breakup that you and I are talking about, I now live in a beautiful two bedroom cottage in Santa Barbara with my new partner, who is so wonderful and vibrant. And we both go to therapy individually. We go to therapy together. There's space for conflict and healthy resolutions, and. Even though we, we fight, we fight as our authentic selves. Yeah. And we fight with a understanding that we're both coming to it with the best of intentions and with a lot of love, and we're coming to it to get to a resolution at the end. Mm-hmm. Which is something I really have never had before. And who knows what will happen. But that's the point. Like it's about what you're creating in the present. It's about creating a life where you feel like you can be the most you, the yous you that ever viewed, whether it's your home, your relationship, your business. Where do you feel the most you? Where is your zone of genius? How can you try easier? Hmm. And it's also always in hindsight that you're like, now that I'm with the person, that's a really perfect match for me. How did I ever be with, like, how did I ever spend one extra day in the previous relationship because I was a different person? Yeah. And I think that that's like, that's the whole, that's the whole game, right? Like it starts with us. The only thing we can control is ourselves. That's it. That's it. And it affects what we attract. Certainly. Of course. Yeah. You know, like I, now who I am now could never be in that other relationship or any of the other relationships that came before it because I have done more work you know? Wow. Kelsey, we've talked a lot about your personal life, but I wanna give you a moment to chat about just like your business and how you can help others. I know I need to get on your website immediately and update some of my kind of marketing materials and website. So just give everyone a little bit of background on your business. Absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity. So I like to say I am a cheerleader for women in business, and not only do I cheer, I give actionable tips. Mm-hmm. because I hate, like when I was building my business, the thing I hated the most was just. Figuring out where the fuck to start Like, just tell me what to do. Just like gimme something simple. Tell me what to do, make a few changes without me having to spend thousands of dollars on something I'm not even sure is gonna work. Like just help me lay some groundwork. So that's how I do business as an educator. As a copywriter, as somebody who helps women in business. So what I do is I'm a copywriting expert, which means I help women entrepreneurs learn to write words that sell without sounding salesy. Your copy is just anywhere. There are words that represent you, your brand, or your business, and a lot of people don't realize how valuable copywriting is. Businesses that invest in copywriting actually see, I think the statistic is um, 300% more conversions and sales than businesses that don't work on their copy. So that's just, of course, just from your words, right? Mm-hmm. There's so much power in that. So the way that I help is I have a signature program that opens twice a year. Copy class. We just, we're in the middle of it right now. Next time it opens is October. I am You heard it here first. Launching a new membership. And I kind of am keeping it a secret what it's gonna be called. But go to kelsey foremost.com and get on my email list and you'll be alerted before it goes live to the public. I'm really excited about it. It's going to be, Very much focused on where the fuck do I start? Yes. And there's going to be a monthly theme of how to make small tweaks to your business to make big results. And then I do one-on-one copywriting work. If that's something that you need, you just want somebody to do it for you. You're like, Kelsey, please just like, let me pay you and please write my website, write my sales page, write my email funnels. I do that too. And all of it is at Kelsey foremost dot. And Kelsey also has a lot of free be and like free content. if you're the type of person, like I know from me, I'm a learner, where I'm like, okay, give me like a a two pager and give me the right questions to ask and I can probably write it myself. So if you're that type of person too, you can start with that. Get a taste of what Kelsey offers and then maybe join her signature program, cuz that's usually how I join big programs. Like I like to watch you for a bit. Same as what we were talking before. Exactly. Try a couple things like get my feet wet and then be like, oh shit, this is what she's giving away for free. What's in the, you know, that's how I. yes. That's like one of my favorite things is getting feedback from students and clients. And my favorite thing is when they're always like, I can't believe you gave this away. Like, I can't believe how much of a difference this thing made and it's free. So yes. Yeah. Come to kelsey foremost.com or go to kelsey foremost.com/freebies and there is a whole suite of things you can kind of choose your own adventure, what's the most helpful to you. And then also, I have a podcast as well. Yes, you do. Yes. It's called, please Plug That. Yeah, it's called Find Your Magic. You can listen to it anywhere. You listen to podcasts. And it is about the intersection of entrepreneurship and mental health. So I bring on an expert, whether it's someone who is an expert in business, like a really specific niche or a mental health expert, therapists, relationship coaches. I had a burnout. Recovery expert on. That was really a great episode. So yeah, come hang out with me and find your magic and we'll have to get Janelle on there soon, because goodness knows Yeah. Always on the verge of Bruno, but also have really good boundaries, which I could talk about. Yes, I can write a book on that. Kelsey, thank you so much for being on. I feel like we had a really good conversation. around knowing when to pivot and not having shame around making changes in your life and whether you switch types of careers and then go back, like there's no shame in that. And also just that pit in your stomach when you know like this isn't it, and knowing how to change. So thank you so much for reminding us that change is good. Change is fucking great. You guys. Change changes. Thanks so much. Thanks. Did you know that I'm not only a podcast host, but in my full-time career, I met Toronto based real estate agent. If you are someone, you know, is a busy professional looking to get into the Toronto real estate market, I highly recommend reaching out to me. You can go directly to my website@wwwdotjenelletremblant.com. And you can click the let's talk button to book a call with me. I work with buyers, renters, and sellers in the downtown and east end areas. So don't hesitate to reach out to me and I would love to help you find your next home. And in the meantime, we'll see you here back next week.