Rising From Two Layoffs: Navigating Self-Doubt and Finding New Passions with Joanna Tran Artwork

Ebb and Glow

Welcome to Ebb and Glow — the podcast that shows you how everyday people are taking on life’s ups and downs and coming out better than before. Your host, Jenelle Tremblett, will be with you weekly and with special guests, to chat about everything from careers, relationships, mindset, and everything in between. Are you tired of only seeing the highlight reel? Me too. This podcast will instead be peeking behind the curtain to reveal all the steps, pep talks, and glasses of wine that must happen before we become strong, confident, and resilient.

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Ebb and Glow

Rising From Two Layoffs: Navigating Self-Doubt and Finding New Passions with Joanna Tran

March 28, 2023 • Jenelle Tremblett • Episode 127

#127: In November 2022, Joanna was impacted by the tech layoffs. This was her second layoff in her 7 year career due to no fault of her own. The news of the layoff was disappointing, but she recognized that she was starting to burn out, so maybe this layoff was meant to be. Through the process, there were definitely good and bad days; some with tears and anxiety.

Joanna is a content and social marketer with 7 years of experience across CPG, tech, and web3. She's recently developed a love for improvising as an outlet of self-expression and play. In her free time, Joanna enjoys working out, cooking, and practicing mindfulness.

Joanna's Ebbs

Being laid off
Job loss
Burn out
Navigating rejection and self doubt

Joanna's Glows

Experiencing a silent retreat
Finding new passions and hobbies
New levels of self awareness
Gaining confidence

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Welcome to the ebb and glow podcast. I'm your host, Janelle Tremlett. And I'm a firm believer that even when life doesn't go as planned, it is taking you exactly where you're meant to be on this podcast. I'm here to help you finally release control of what you think you want and begin to just trust in the ebbs and flows of life. Each week, I will show you how to build that positive mindset radiate with self confidence and cultivate an unshakeable resilience. Let me prove to you that even when life ebb. You will glow. Hello everyone. And welcome to episode 1 27 of the Eben glow podcast. I'm your host Janell, and today's episode is going to be a great one. It's all about getting laid off. And that situation is very prominent in today's culture with all of the tech layoffs happening across the U S and Canada. I myself have been fired. I've been through layoffs. I've been through a lot of job changes prior to getting into my real estate career. And I know how devastating of a feeling it is when you don't have control over your financial future, because for a lot of people. They don't have a ton of side hustles and other income generating activities. a lot of the time their full-time job is their main source of income. So when you lose a job or get laid off or something happens, Uh, within a macro environment that you have no control over. Like I said, it can be devastating to your confidence, your self worth. And just your financial situation and your everyday life. I want today's episode with Joanna To give you some inspiration to help you regain your confidence back and to ultimately make you feel like you're not alone. So many people have been affected by layoffs in the last few months. And you'll learn by listening to Joanna's story. This is her second layoff that she's experienced and you'll learn from her story, some great tips and insights into how she navigated going through this, what she's doing every day to kind of get back on the horse and get back in the swing of things. And. The benefits that she has gained from the layoff. And I know that sounds really crazy. It's like, what are the benefits? I lost my job. Like so many things are happening as a domino effect because of that. And you're expecting me to be grateful and happy. Well, that's kind of the purpose of this podcast. We go through so many ups and downs throughout our life. And the idea of this podcast is to give you constant examples of showing you that. Whatever you go through today, I can guarantee you that there is going to be a silver lining at the end of it, where you look back and reflect and say, wow. Yeah, that situation put me through the damn ringer, but I am so much more of a stronger, better confident person. Then, if I didn't go through that. And ultimately, I, like I said, that's what this podcast is all about. To give you some insight into who Joanna is. So Joanna is a content and social marketer with seven years of experience across CPG tech and web three. She's a curious tinker having worked on side projects and managed her own freelance business. Most recently, she's developed a love for improvising as an outlet of self-expression in play. And in her free time, Joanna enjoys working out, cooking and practicing mindfulness. Joanna comes to us from British Columbia here in Canada. And in November, 2022, Joanna was impacted by tech layoffs. This was her second layoff in her seven year career due to no fault of her own. The first was in 2021 due to a COVID restructure. The news of the layoff most recently was disappointing, but Joanna recognized that she was starting to burn out. So maybe this laugh was meant to be through the process. There were definitely good and bad days. Some with tears and anxiety, I asked Joanna. Throughout this episode, kind of, how did you navigate this and how did you get back into the flow of things? Joanna talks about taking the first few weeks off to decompress to figure out what you want to do. Next. She took a lot of time to really reflect on what does she want out of the next opportunity. What has she liked about previous jobs? What did it work? What's the next move. She also talks a lot about being proactive and she's gained a lot of self-awareness Throughout this situation. And the really cool part, which we do spend a lot of time talking about this episode is how these layoffs allowed her to open up new hobbies and experiences that inevitably is going to make her better in her career. So with all that being said, if you love today's episode, make sure to share it with a friend, especially if you know someone who's been recently affected by layups. This will definitely give them the confidence and the inspiration they need to take into their job search so all that being said enjoy the episode Joanna, thanks so much for being. Hey, super excited to be here. I'm super excited. When I was chatting to you originally I was thinking of topics of like, what's going on lately, and one, one, curious about talking about on the podcast? And one of the biggest things happening lately is there's a lot of layoffs within Toronto and a couple of my friends were actually affected by the layoffs and I was saying to them like, come on the podcast. And they were nervous. They were like, honestly, it's still too fresh. Like I don't really wanna talk about it. And I was like, okay, well you have like the first dibs if you wanna jump on. And so I figured why not just post on LinkedIn and see like who, like obviously people are affected by it, who's willing to talk about it? And that's how we got connected. So I'm so happy that you reached out. Yeah, no. Awesome. It was super random. I think we might have like one mutual connection and I've been posting on LinkedIn for the past couple weeks and I'm just really active on there, so it's great that I kind of came across you and your podcast. So many people are afraid to talk about the stuff that's happening with them, especially when it's really fresh. I know a lot of times when I have guests on here, the stuff that we talk about it, it's usually, it's happened a couple years ago or happened years ago, so that. See, the other side of it a lot better and have a lot of, a lot more gratitude for what they went through. But I mean, you're, you're kind of on the other end of it, but it, like you're, it's still fresh. Yeah, I really wish I came on today and said like, oh my gosh, I got an offer. But I'm still kind of in that stage of like waiting to see what happens. So yeah, I'm still in the thick of it. you're, I was just gonna say you're in the thick of it. So, to give the audience context in November, 2022, Joanna was impacted by tech layoffs. If you're not familiar, there's been a ton of tech layoffs, just especially in Toronto. Tech across Canada and the us and what I find interesting is this is your second time getting laid off in seven years. So my question to you first is, even though you've experienced this, it's it's still a shock. Hey, it's still, it, it doesn't get easier, does it? It doesn't really get easier, but I think I felt, at first I thought I was gonna be a little bit less emotional, to be honest. Cuz in the first time that I was laid off, it was, it actually happened on Lunar New Year. So like a day we're supposed to be celebrating with my family. Like my family stayed home to have lunch and then pretty much at lunchtime I went to them crying saying I just lost my job. You do not wanna say that to Asian parents. Yeah. And then this time around it was like, I think with like the macro economic environment, I could kind of see. Something blooming could happen. Yeah. And so unfortunately, just being in a marketing role, I was impacted. And yeah, I would say it was still, the start was like pretty emotional like, like I knew this time around that it wasn't me. It wasn't like my abilities or who I am as a person, but really it is just, Unfortunately, like the business and their decisions and also just like this larger macroeconomic environment that, you know, for even businesses that maybe are doing decently, it is also a good time for them to kind of have this excuse to like shed some the fat, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I came from a marketing background as well prior to real estate and marketing is usually the first to go when there's layoffs, cuz it's like if we're not making any money, we do not need to be promoting anymore. Yes. Like we gotta cut this marketing spend going through two tech layoffs now. Are you thinking about changing directions or changing like paths or do you wanna stay within market? I think so when I first actually got laid off, and I, I think about this oftentimes being in marketing is like, do I wanna do something different? And I actually even took some time off to go on my own kind of like prayer and silent retreat for the weekend. And, and through that I kind of decided like, you know, I'm really good at marketing and that's what I'm good at, so I'm gonna kind of continue down that path. But what I did differently this time too is I took time to kind of discover other things. Could be possible just because I have a bit more free time now. And so an example was I, throughout my career, like even when I was working in retail, I've had three different managers or like senior leaders in my life who have said, Do you do any voice acting like you have a really great voice for it? Hmm. And I had never done it before, and so pretty much like the second week that I was laid off, I signed up for like a weekend intensive intro to voice acting. Hmm. Yeah. I find that so fascinating. I find both of those things fascinating. I've never heard of a silent prayer retreat before. Yeah. Where did you find this? What intrigued you to go into this and kind of what did you gain from doing that? Yeah, so, I've never done one before. I had a friend who, she's been on silent retreats that are kind of like 10 days long. I just didn't see myself doing something like that. Mm-hmm. And those tend to get booked up as well, and they're quite pricey. And so, I do have like a faith background and so I just felt like I needed to kind of get away and go somewhere that was kind of within nature. Mm-hmm. So I did reach out to someone I knew and ask them for like, recommendations on like, where can I kind of do this, like affordably by myself. and I ended up actually finding this place on Bowen Island where you can kind of go by donation. they do have a faith background, but you can go, even if you don't have a faith background mm-hmm. And so I, yeah, prepped my food, kind of went there with the goal of I'm not gonna be on my phone for 24 hours, I'm just gonna take that time to like read and journal and kind of like walk around. And, um, yeah. Even through that experience, I honestly thought. Maybe I'm gonna get some type of like, enlightenment in terms of like, I'll figure out what I wanna do next. But I think what I realized through that was I just needed that space to really slow down and really just like feel a sense of like calm and like get rid of any hurry that I was experiencing in the last couple years. That really was like draining me. And so what I really got out of that was like, I need to. Keep this stillness in my life and that like, even though I had this one weekend experience, it's something that I had to embed into like my weekly routine. I was just gonna say, a lot of the times working in the hustle culture that we're part of in Toronto especially. Mm-hmm. we wait until we burn out to take a long extended vacation. Yes. Or to take a full, like sick leave off. instead of just like adding an into our weekly or daily routine, And it is as something as simple, I'm from a super small town, so it's like I'm not part of the hustle and bustle. I didn't grow up around that. Yeah. Like I've chose to be part of that. Yeah. So I am so used to being around nature, and I find if there's a single day where I don't get outside and just go for a walk, and even if I, I don't need silence, but just like, just that calm nature, I notice a big change in my day. So I can only imagine the benefits of doing a silent retreat. You did it for a full. Yeah, so from Friday night I drove, I took the ferry, drove to the Bowen Island, and then I left around Sunday afternoon. So I had a solid 24 hours of like no phone. I didn't really talk to anyone. Like when I got there, I talked to the, the volunteer, who was like, yeah, hosting that weekend. And then otherwise it was like very minimal talking or contact with other people. And I find you don't e like I know you like, you're like, okay, I don't need anything as crazy as a 10 day silent retreat. Yeah. Let's do something a little bit more minimal. But anyone listening to this, you can do something even more minimal as that. Like Yeah, you can literally just like turn your phone off and just go to Toronto Islands and just lay in the park. Yeah. For an afternoon. You don't And like, or just journal or just like go for a long walk. Yeah. And again, with your phone turned off, I feel like our phone is like, Safety thing too. So I like don't ever like leaving it completely, but just turn it off. Yeah. And I think there's so much benefit in just shutting off your Yeah. Yourself as well. No, for sure. I even when I got there, I was like, oh, I think I'm gonna just keep my phone on. So I know the time and the volunteer who worked there was like, why do you need to know the, the time? Like, what are you in a rush for? Like what are you trying to. Do. And then, so in the middle of the Saturday, I felt really tired. So it was the first time I kind of just in the middle of the day took a nap with like no alarm. Mm. And just kind of let my body rest and like take the rest that it needed. It's like the way you say it, it's groundbreaking. I just, yeah, I just didn't put an alarm on and it's just like, how did we get. Where it's like, you almost feel like that's monumental to just go one day without having a purpose and getting up and doing something. We feel so guilty about doing nothing. Mm-hmm. why, why do you think that is? Why do we feel, feel guilty about doing nothing? I think because especially when you live. City like Toronto or Vancouver or a place that's like a very high cost of living, and oftentimes people's wages do not match the standard of living. Mm-hmm. is, you do feel the need to like always be on and like, think of ways to make money or think of ways that you can kind of save money or like even after a long week, just rejuvenate yourself. So I, I feel like that's why we just can't shut off. Cause it just feels like we always have something that we need to do. You spent the first few weeks post layoff, just decompressing. Yeah. Did, did you feel like you had to do that or did you force yourself or did that just happen naturally? I think because it wasn't my first layoff, I knew that like, this was actually also like just to be, to be transparent. I did get like a nice severance package. Yeah. So that also gave me the privilege and opportunity to take a breath. And so knowing that I've already been through something like this once, I just knew I needed to kind of take that time off and kind of really recalibrate and figure out do I wanna continue in marketing? and I also spoke to mentors and previous managers who all kind of gave me the same advice or like friends of friends who gave the same advice where it's like, you should just kind of take this time off or at least take a bit of time off and figure out what you wanna do next. And also to just rest. Yeah. whenever like my friends get caught up in layoffs and I've been caught up in layoffs and I've been fired before, I got caught up in pandemic stuff prior to real estate, A little bit of everything, and I always say to people, you're gonna be back in another role before you know it. Yeah. And you are going to regret not relishing in this time that you have. think of it as a long vacation. You can still get back on the horse and plan your next move, but think of it as a time to. Appreciate the hobbies that you have, learn new hobbies. Just it's like an extended vacation. And again, it, it comes with a lot of privilege when you have the severance to be able to look at it that way, but, generally how we're talking right now and the tech layoffs that are happening, majority of people are getting severance packages. So yeah, you do have that beauty of time to just relax and take the time to make the next move instead of feeling rushed and pressured into just jumping at anything. Yeah, totally. Because I think that's a mistake that I don't wanna make is to rush into a job. I just needed for financial reasons, and then now I'm kind of stuck there for a year. But I also understand that everyone has their own timelines. Like I think I'm also getting to that point too, where I haven't been working since November. Right now it's like mid-March. And so like if something's not my ideal role, but it's going to be a stepping stone or get me to where I wanna go, then I think it is the wise choice to like take, take it if it's what's right for you, your standards change as the time goes on. Yeah. In the beginning, you. unless it's the absolute best thing in the world, I'm not jumping into anything anytime soon. Yeah. Then as you get closer and like you're eager to get back to work too, like you do wanna feel like you are, you're building something and having a part of something. Yeah. Like there's only so much I, I can only speak for myself. There's only so much chilling you can do before, like you start feeling like actually very unproductive and just like you don't know what you're doing with your. Yeah, a hundred percent. okay, so laid off in November or mid-March. At what point did you get to that point? Yeah. Where you're like, okay, time to get back on the horse again and let's start applying. Let's start looking, let's start figuring out my next move. Like, how long did like the decompressing last? I'd say like about a month. Or maybe even six weeks cuz it's just like the timing of when I was laid off. You're also going into the holidays. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a challenge of like, okay, there's less activity during those weeks before the holidays. Because like people are going on vacation or people just kind of don't care anymore. So I started kind of more so during that, that period of time, like revamping my resume and also even taking time to do some activities such as like, I did this worksheet that was trying to figure out what are your top seven skills. Mm-hmm. So then through that I listed. The 25 accomplishments I've had in my career and like, what makes me proud of that? And then from that I was able to extrapolate seven skills. And so from there I know like, okay, for my next job, like for example, I love collaboration. I love working with other people. So I wanna be in a role that has a lot of collaboration and like cross-functional work. So there's a lot of like digging and finding things about myself as well. I want to move to the US from, from Canada, so that was also a time that I used to kind of do a bit more research into like what companies are out there in like New York and San Francisco and like what are the opportunities for the types of roles I want. This list of 25 accomplishment that led into the seven skills of yours, where did you learn? So I, I guess this is like another place of privilege, but um, through the layoff that I had, we were connected to like a career coach. Wow. So it's like if you wanted to take that offer, then you could, so I was someone who decided to like, utilize that, that service. And so, yeah, it's through this program called Get Five. But essentially that's one of the worksheets and like the first steps that you wanted do. Whoa. Before your job search, did you find the majority of your peers took advantage? So actually like not everybody took advantage of it. Wow. Yeah. Which is interesting cause I, queer coaching and like mentoring is an expensive service. Like I'd be all over that. Yeah. So then I had a few friends who definitely did take it, I think others because they felt like, oh, I know how to write a resume and I know how to like write cover letters. I know how to interview. They didn't do it, but it was way more than. It was, yeah, like for myself personally, and for the friends that I know who did take this service um, what we found was the coach was really there for accountability. Mm. And mindset shifting. Mm. Yeah. Where was your mindset post layoff and how has that changed? Like what did you gain in terms of the mindset shifting from the. for me, she gave me some strategies to use. So for example, like as someone who's worked. A lot I kind of gave the example of like, oh, how can I add pressure to myself so that I actually perform and like try to like look for these jobs, right? at this point, the only motivator that you really had is like, I need to get a job to like, put food on the table type of thing. especially if you have severance or especially if you like don't want to get the wrong role, you're gonna kind of take your time. And so she kind of tried to get me to shift my mindset where it's like, is it really about the pressure though? Like in some circumstances, like pressure's really great, it might help you like meet a deadline. But in like a situation like this, she's like, you actually wanna figure out like who do you wanna be during the process? And like, how do you wanna show. And so I leaned on some words such as like, I wanna be open, right? So I wanna be open to like different opportunities. Even ones that at first glance, I might be like, I'm not really interested, but I should still have the call and figure out like, does it kind of align with what I want? And also showing up as like, I guess discipline, right? It's not really about. The minor goals every single day of being disciplined, like, I need to apply for like five jobs today. And like that's how I stayed disciplined. But it's like looking at your overall like plan to find a job. Like are you staying disciplined and are you doing the things that you need to do each day or each week to like get you towards that goal? Some of those calls that you took, that initially you were like, eh, like this is not the job I want, but you still took the call. Were you surprised by any of them? I think I was surprised in the sense that like the information that you get off of a job description or even like a 15 minute recruiter call is only so much. So it's always good to kind of like have those calls and then figure out if you wanna continue after they tell you what the company is. And also like, to be honest, like it is good practice. So if you're kind of like someone who hasn't been in the job market for a while, like these types of calls are good practice. They are. you don't want your first interview to be the job, interview of the job Yes. That you really, really, really, really want. It's just, well to Yeah. Go kiss a couple frogs first before you go on the dream interview. Yes. You know what I mean? I got the impression from you that like, even though you did decompress for a little bit, you really did take action in the three months that you've been laid off. I mean, we were just talking about you were one of the few people that took advantage of the career coach, but you also just like jumped into a lot of different roles and experiences. You were working as a personal assistant, you did freelance marketing, and as we mentioned earlier, you even looked into voice acting. Was it fun exploring different interests and hobbies and paths? Yeah, I guess I can give an example of like, even the example of being open, right? Yeah. With the personal assistant gig that I'm still currently doing it was funny cuz when my friend reached out to me about this role, it was like a founder that she used to work with. I was actually trying to ask my other friends like, Hey, does anyone want this Because I was like, I don't really know if I want to take this on. But then after like reflecting on it and like speaking with the actual founder that I work with I decided like, You know, why not? Like during this time where I'm not working, let's try something that's like not marketing. Mm-hmm. because that was like another fear that I had was like, I actually didn't really take on any marketing freelance projects because I was like, I don't wanna do that. And then when I get into a full-time role field burnt out cuz like, ah, I was just working on these projects. And so yeah, working with like the founder, it's, it's been good to like keep my brain active and just, Think on the fly, especially being a personal assistant, sometimes things come up and you just need to like solve it right away. So that's been really great. Um, I think trying other things like the voice acting, right? So what kind of came out of voice acting was that my instructor recommended that if you wanna do like animation, voiceover, you should actually try out improv. And so, yeah, So then I was really reluctant to do it cuz I was like, I don't know how I feel about improv. It just seems kind of like, Not for me, Why? Or just really out there. Like I, I just had like this negative idea of it. Okay. And then I had a friend who actually goes to the school that I go to now, and she was like, oh, they have a free session. Like, do you wanna come with me? And then you can kind of try it. And I was kind of like really pushing this off to the last minute. And then in the end I decided to like go with her. And then when I was there I was like, oh my gosh. Like I've played these, they're just like games. Like I've played these games before at. even like a work team bonding session, And so that's kind of what got me into it. my mindset is like, this time that I have right now is so precious, so why not try things that might be different and it might actually open up doors to like other paths that I've never even thought of. Hundred percent. A quick fact about me, one of my first courses in university, my electives was Introduction to Acting. Oh, okay. And so the nature of the uh, commerce program that I did, the university I went to, you were not allowed to pick electives within the business program. You had to do something. Completely different. I think it was just their way of like making well-rounded business people. Yeah. So I did introduction to acting and a lot of it was like a lot of the classes were like improv. I felt like I was in a gym class with adults. Yeah. it was so funny. Yeah. But the, the thing that I noticed, like I always thought I was, and I, I think I am, I know I am a very confident person, but wow, improv puts you so out of your comfort zone. it makes you feel like the, the kid picked last than gym. Like the entire class. Did you feel that way? I mean, or maybe you were good at it. it's funny cuz when I think when I first, I took the first few classes. It's like, you're, you go up, this is just performing in front of your class. You're doing like a little short scene. Yeah. But it's like, I just had no self-awareness of like, what was I even doing? Like I felt like. Kind of happened so quickly you're blacked out Yeah, essentially. But now I finished like the 1 0 2 level. Okay. And um, I'm taking this class called Deepen Your Characters, and I've done like two live shows in front of an audience. And now I actually have more awareness of what I'm doing. And like now I'm getting to the point where it's like I'm not just here to like play, I'm actually here to try to like refine this skill that I'm trying to build as well. Wow. Yeah, like, just think like, without this layoff, you wouldn't have been able to explore this. No. And maybe it just becomes like a random hobby and an interest. I mean, it might become a party trick that you can bring, like it just makes your, makes you. Way more of an interesting person. You know what I mean? Yeah. As I keep saying, we get so cut up in work. We work, work, work, work, work, work. On the weekends, we're catching up on emails on Sunday. We're too exhausted. We need to clean our house and make meals for the next week. Then we do it all again. Yeah. Like who do we become? Other than that, like our work becomes our self-worth, and that is a really scary path to go down. You know what I. Yeah, imagine you worked somewhere for like five years and then you just got laid off. that must have been really devastating and your whole life and like social network. Mm-hmm. everything is that job. Like previous real estate, I hung out with my coworkers at work and after work and if I was ever caught up in a layoff at that company, I'd be like, okay, everything just got taken away from me. It would feel mm-hmm. Tell me about some of the bad days of the layoffs. Ooh, some of the bad days. I mean, there's, they, they were definitely there. So, um, I think definitely the first week it was like, I just remember trying to like fix my resume or something, and I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna lay on the couch for a second. And then I laid on the couch and started crying. And then, I messaged my friend and was like, yep. Like this is just how I'm feeling emotionally. And I guess sometimes too, like it's not even like, the full day is bad, but sometimes it's like, you've had a great day and then I'm going to bed, and then I think like, oh my gosh, I don't really work and I don't really know where my life is going. Um, So it's almost like this, you're a little hopeless. Yeah. we talked about mindset earlier. It's so easy to go to bed that night and think, oh my God, I have no purpose tomorrow. instead of saying, oh my God, I have a full day of opportunity of like so much I can do and get done. Yeah. And, but it's funny when, when we're back into the role, when we're, we're post layoff, we're back into a new company, you'll have a stressful day at work and all of a sudden you'll be like, oh my God, I just need one day to just do nothing and I wanna work on it. Yeah. everything else besides this job. And it's like so funny. We always think like when we're in it, we want the other thing. When we're in the other thing, we want to go back to where we were. Yeah. Wait. It's interesting, isn't it? It is. I'm hoping that this time, like once I start working full-time again, I find a bit more balanced to like do those extracurricular things. Cuz I think in the past the only thing that I did that was like kind of extracurricular was like, you know, working out or maybe doing like a rec sports team, but nothing else to like further myself that was like, very experimental, like right now, and all of these experimental things, whether or not it, it probably will make you better in your job. Mm-hmm. In terms of sp specifically improv, you'll be able to learn how to deal with things on the fly and mm-hmm. and, and bounce off other people. And especially if you like collaboration, like working in improv is gonna only help that. and just like, it makes you just a lot more resilient. Like Yeah. If you can handle layoffs If someone just sends you a bad email at work, like you can handle it, you know what I mean? You're not as reactionary, you're not as troubled by like, minuscule things moving forward. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think it also gives like a, I guess a deeper sense of empathy for others. Just recognizing that like, there might be something going on in their day to make them behave or act in a certain. I wanna ask you a little bit about the rejection. So once you start applying for jobs I remember you saying like sometimes you would look at a role and just be like, I don't even wanna bother because I just like can't handle another rejection letter or rejection email. Walk me through those thoughts that you were going. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think that was like a big thing that I had to shift my mindset around as well. And I think in the past layoff that I had was like, I don't think I tried for some jobs because I just didn't think that it was attainable or like I was even like, experienced or like worthy to like, get it. But I think now I'm in a different mindset of like, why not? Like I honestly have nothing to lose. I. An extra hour a day to like try to apply for this. And I think too, it's like I had to kind of zoom out and think of the bigger picture of like, it's not just about like this one job and whether or not I get an interview for it, but it's like, did I put in the reps to get to that final goal of like getting that job that I want? Mm. What do you mean by that? So for example, it's like, just knowing that I, because all I can really control is my effort and not really the outcome of what job I can get. So it's like, if I can then, you know, like playing basketball, get more shots of like applying for this job and applying for like the other job and whatnot, then I just increase my chances of meeting that goal finally one day, getting that ideal role that I want. I think a lot of people do like, Reject themselves. Right? Or like, they don't even put themselves into the running for something because they feel like how I felt before, where it's like I'm not experienced enough or I'm not worthy, and things like that. And this market is definitely different from other markets. Like I have some friends who are super smart high achievers and like they are even also recognizing that this is the type of market where it's like you kind of just have to give it your all in every situ. And so that's just how I've been able to kind of overcome that sense of like rejection on myself. You know, it's not just you, you know, there's tons of other people experiencing the same thing. Yeah, and I think also with every rejection or failure, it does give you hopefully some additional insight into like the path that you should go down or even gives you some more insight to like, how can I refine my own process to. get the result of finally getting that, that role. It also makes you more rejection proof, like Yeah, you can, every rejection you handle, like you become more resilient for the next one. You know what I mean? Yes. Like they, they start just bouncing off you, I would imagine. Pretty much at this point. Yeah. They've kind of just bounced off me uh, for the most part. Yeah. Some will still hurt, especially when you want them. Yeah. I think having been rejected so many times in the job process, it's also helped me to like put myself out there for improv cuz I'm like mm-hmm well, what's gonna happen? The worst thing is like, I'm gonna, no one's gonna laugh. Okay, whatever. I'll just say something else and hopefully they'll laugh a hundred percent. And also like it was something too that kind of encouraged me to like start posting some of my own social content. Like I'm not super heavy at like content creation right now for myself, but I am slowly starting to put myself out there. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah. I put, I put myself out there on social media every single day for my job, and I have an appreciation for any content creator or anyone in the public eye. Oh my God. Everyone has an opinion. Yes. and it's, it's sometimes scary, like sometimes the comments and stuff, like, it's hard not to take it personally and just everyone's opinion. Everyone has. everyone has an opinion, but it doesn't mean that it's something worth like taking in. Yeah. I've, uh, I've learned over the past year to adjust to really only ever care about the opinions of the people's life that you actually do want. Yeah. Hmm. I wanna ask you about your, I don't give a fuck era and posting on TikTok. So tell us more about. Yeah, I guess because that's the energy that I'm all about Yeah, no, no, I'm totally about that energy. So I guess I guess to me why that era is meaningful to me is because as someone who's done marketing, I did use to post my own content before and then I think during the pandemic I kind of stopped cuz there was kind of nothing to post about. And then also I think I just became a bit more. Not self-aware, but like self-conscious about what other people might think of me. And so I just really had all of these people's like opinions kind of in my head and, and those opinions kind of. Directed how I lived my life. And I think because of this layoff and how I'm just like now gaining the resilience of like being rejected, having to constantly put myself out there without always getting a response that is favorable has just kind of pushed me to like, yeah, put myself out there on social media in terms of like kind of creating TikTok or even posting on LinkedIn or posting on my Twitter. Cuz what I really care about is. I know I'm not going through this alone, and so if I can make someone else feel like they're being seen or heard, then that's kind of all that really matters. And we're in a new age world where if you want that next role, I mean networking online is gonna get you in the door a lot faster. Yes. and yes, I understand when someone gets fired or laid off or going through any type of job transition, as we've talked about, you need that time off to decompress first. But once that time has passed and you're kind of gotten all of that out of your system, you to get the next role, it's not just sitting there and hoping for the phone to ring. No, it's not gonna happen. You have to go make the opportunity for yourself, and I'm sure you've figured that. No, a hundred percent. I think especially in a challenging market like this, you kind of have to pull out all the stops to like really stand out and so. I'm saying like even for myself or for my friends who are super high achievers, like, I think at first they're like, I'm just gonna kind of try to get some referrals. Cause I, I know people within the network mm-hmm. and then now they're like, okay, I'm actually gonna send cover letters. I'm gonna send messages to the hiring managers. I'm gonna book all these coffee chats with different people to like understand more about the industries that they wanna be in or about the companies that they wanna work for. Yeah. So it's really. Yeah. Putting in that effort to make yourself stand out as well as like, see if there are opportunities that you can create for yourself. Hmm. Yeah. You have too. I wanna ask you a little bit about the company that you're building on the side. It's in the N F T space, right? It is. Um, It is in the N F T space. Tell, tell me more about that. Is that what Web three means? Is NFT stuff? Uh, Not necessarily. I think now what's Web three? So I can explain it, but Web one was like um, the early days of the internet, okay. Where you can really only, like, for example, like there's blogs, right? So you can read the blogs, but you couldn't really comment back and forth. Okay. So it's like read only. And then Web two is kind of like where we're currently kind of at, where it's like, you can read and you can also write as in their social media. So you can kind of post your own content. There's now this layer of like interaction between people. And then web three is where now there's also gonna be like the data ownership layer of like, instead of you posting all of your content on like Instagram and they own that data, the technology, the way it's supposed to work is supposed to be able to give you ownership over your data and how it's shared with like brands or other people. Huh? Tell me more about this. So now the company, like your company, guava Girls, does that have anything to do with Web three or are these two things separate? it's, it's within the Web three world. Okay. I actually know a lot about crypto and NFTs, but I'm like, what? I've never heard it called web three before. Yeah. It's interesting cuz I think there's a lot of people are saying we're kind of at like that web two and a half phase. Cause the tech isn't fully there to give people like data ownership and. But I guess, yeah, how, how Guava Girls was born. I'm not a co-founder, but I was like a founding member. Oh, okay. So it's not yours, so not like all yours. You're part of the founders. Okay. I'm part of the founders. So how it, it kind of happened was my friend is an artist, her name's Artie Guava, and we used to work together at an agency and she's also muralist and. uh, Done some murals throughout Vancouver. Cool. And so there's this other woman named Tricia, who's like a co-founder. She actually found Artie Gus mural contacted her on Instagram and was like, Hey, like, have you ever thought about selling your art as NFTs? Cuz like, I love your art. It's artist. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I love your art. And I think this is like a way for you to kind of like, explore this new style or this new avenue of, of like, of art. Of art. Yeah. yeah, they met up and they got together and they she helped Arti guava get some of her work on the blockchain. Mm-hmm. And then around January, 2022, they actually wanted to create this thing called the Generative Project. And so what that is, is like you create all these different layers of the different art pieces, and then you put it through like an algorithm or script, and then it puts the art together. So then you as a human, don't come up with the combinations, but like the program comes up with the combinations. Cool. Cool. Yeah. And so I joined and helped them as like the leading marketer to figure out what's our brand narrative, like how do we differentiate within the space um, how do we grow this idea into like an actual community of like believers and followers. Mm. And then um, how do we provide value to them so that we can. Grow this art project and community. Very cool. Yeah. So where does it stand right now? And what are you helping them with in this moment? Yeah, so where we currently stand is we did launch the project in terms of like all the art was done and it was being sold around uh, I guess July, 2022. And that was during like the bear market in crypto. So, we weren't able to sell out the project fully. Mm-hmm. but still enough to. Kind of like Yeah. A buzz, some revenue. Yeah. And get some buzz. And we still have like a, an active community, but where it kind of stands now is just with like the current market conditions. Mm-hmm. Um, One thing that differentiates us is we do have this it's called like the guava fruit stand that our community members wanted, which is like if they participate in like, um, self-care activities through our discord, or if they hold our NFTs, they can earn these things called these guava tokens. Cool. That they can then redeem at the guava fruit stand for like self-care items. This could be like journals or this can be like more like beauty products or even like art that has, or it's like arti guava art as. Yeah, I was looking at the website. It's super cute. Like I love all the artwork. I love, like I was picking around it, like looked really, really. Yeah. So currently like we're, yeah, just adding more items to the fruit stand like every quarter. But kind of where it stands is we kind of wanna decide like it's hard to grow a community within web three cuz it's already so small. Like it's such a niche group of people. Yeah. We're interested. So we are trying to figure out ways of like, do we wanna do more like external partnerships? cause I think Artie Gus art really lends well to like, home decor. Like, I loved it. It's, it's super cute. It's I'm actually doing a painting, like a paint by number right now and it kind of has that similar vibe. So, and I'm gonna put, I'm gonna finish it. I'm gonna put it up in my bathroom. Yeah. And it had like a, like a similar kind of look to it. And there's a, there's an artist I follow on Instagram and she has like a similar vibe as her. Yeah. And she's like sold a lot of her stuff. Like to Indigo and Home Sense. Yeah. And that kind of stuff. Anyways, I was a tangent, but I was more just curious. So it seems like you really like the, the brand marketing, the the product market fit type of marketing. Yeah. And the community building. So when you're looking at roles and interviewing, like what path do you wanna go? Like what's, what types of industries are catching your eye? What type of roles are catching your eye? Yeah, so I think especially in this environment, I do need to stay open to different opportunities that are out there still. But then some roles that I have been interviewing for are within the web three space. Uh, I really, I like the tech. I think it's interesting. I'm also just more open to like general like SaaS companies mm-hmm. That do like productivity tools. I'm like a big organizer and like productivity type of person. Also I have a background in consumer packaged goods, so that's something that I'm still pretty open to and I've been interviewing with like a few of those companies. But yeah, I think. I think with marketing too, like different titles can mean different things at different companies. don't, I know it So it's really, I feel like when they post a role, they don't even know what they're asking for. Yeah, exactly. So even for me, sometimes it's hard for me to be like, I'm this type of marketer because it can. Really vary depending on the company and the stage. Um, So I'm just keeping myself open. But yeah, I think at the core what I'm really looking for is roles where I can like, collaborate with like different team members that aren't just within marketing, but even like product or engineering or like with the sales team um, is pretty important to me. I think also roles where I have a bit more ownership over my work. And then with like the possibility to like grow and lead a team is also pretty important to me. Top three dream companies. You never know who's listening. I guess so. I mean, Figma, I've been trying to like apply to them. Okay, so Figma, what else? Um, I think that's an interesting one. I, I really wanna work for Notion too. I think I was gonna ask like, have you thought about Notion? I love Notion. Notion controls my life, like it organizes my life in a good way. Yeah. I did apply for them, but yeah, unfortunately heard nothing back as well. and I even had like an in, but I know it's like a pretty competitive place to be. Mm-hmm. And number three? Number three. I'm actually not too sure. I think, I think because I'm, I'm someone who's been through like two layoffs. I don't really believe in there being like a dream company. Oh, anymore as well. Hot. Take Yeah. I just think like you're like, it's not that great once you get in. Everyone has their bones or their skeletons. I mean Yeah, exactly. There's like kind of issues everywhere. Yeah, there's challenges everywhere. I think especially now with like ai. Also another challenge, that adds, adds to like businesses. So I'm also someone who really goes with the flow, so I feel like if I catch something that kind of like catches my eye, then I kind of go with it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, So if it's not a dream company, like what's gonna be different about this time around? Like what? Like what do you want differently? What's the dream situation scenario? Opportunity. I think what's different now is because I've worked at like some pretty early stage companies where like the teams are a bit smaller and like there's a lack of resources at times. Like what's really important to me is working somewhere where I can. Have like really clear access to like what my budget is and like the people that I'm working with. And I think also just more networking opportunities. Cause I think that's, even this time around like being laid off, I've been able to unlock a better network. So it's like oftentimes the people that you work with will help you kind of, you know, improve yourself and like they'll help you kind of go where you wanna go and you can help them as well. Yeah, I agree. Old age phrase, but your net worth is your network. Yeah. It really is. And I think as you, you continue to go into your career, you realize that more and more and more. Yeah. And it's, you think back, you're like, ah, shit, I burned that bridge there. Ugh, I didn't treat that person very well. And you're just like, regrets. Regrets. But hey, like you can, you're only gonna learn from it. You know what I mean? For sure. And I think too, like I've worked with some people in the past where I'm like, you're not. you weren't like the most diligent person to work with, but you honestly never know where people can go and people can change. And like I, I agree. I've worked with someone where like this person had like changed a lot within the time that I was working with them. So it's like you never know what's gonna trigger someone to want to like improve themselves and be better. And also like at the time that you're working with say, hypothetical person, that might have been the absolute worst role for them. And obviously they're not gonna. Yes, that's true. And then it's like you see them in a completely different career later and you're like, wow, you're killing it. And yeah. So it just like wasn't the right fit for them. And that's totally fine. Yep. Last couple questions. You're, you're on the tail end. You're, you're getting into final interviews. Yeah. You're, you're trying to kind of decide on your next path. Looking back at it all now, these ember January, February, March. Were like four months later. Can you see the layoff as a blessing in disguise? And if so, why? I think the layoff is a blessing in disguise because I feel like, God, I think I, I feel like I was reading this somewhere. Someone was saying this on Instagram, but they were saying like, I didn't become confident because of like how I looked in my outer appearance, right? It wasn't about them buying nicer clothes or like getting a better haircut, but it was really because of their failures that they were able to grow in their confidence. And I would say that that's the same thing for me. It's like, through this situation, through the failures that I had to face with like just getting rejected at different roles and for putting myself out there with like no response. That's helped me to grow this confidence that I had never had before. So I feel like if this never happened, I wouldn't have gone to this point where I can do improv. Or even like tonight I'm taking a scene study class and doing acting So, yeah, it's really helped me explore new things. And you also mentioned a lot around self-awareness. Um, yeah. So if you wanna speak to that. Yeah. I guess with self-awareness just with like whenever you slow down and you have extra time to like, reflect and journal and really kind of understand what you're going through, that does open your own self-awareness to yourself and like how you feel and like what are you good at, what do you not like? Because I feel like when we. A life that is so busy and hurried you don't really fully get to. absorb all of those learnings and experiences, right? Like, for example, think about someone who goes on a 10 day trip that is jam packed, and then they come home and then they just live their busy life again. You're just not really gonna. get the full thing as if you were gonna take some time off to journal and reflect on like what happened those last 10 days. I love that you said that. When I went away for my solo trip recently, I journaled at the like the morning of each day. About the day previously. Cuz I was like, it is little. It is. Go, go, go. And when I get home. I'm not gonna remember all of these little moments. I'm only gonna remember like what I took photos of and yeah, when I, when I read back, like before I did like a, an episode on my trip, I was like, whoa, like I'm so glad I did this. And it allows you to really reflect on each moment. Mm-hmm. last thing, one of the best things that I think you said that you've really have gained since going through this situation is you said, You stopped shying away from taking up space and now that you, you finally realize that you're worthy of taking up that space. I think that's so inspirational. Like what a change. Actually I have a lot to improv is probably what has helped, really helped me to recognize this. But um, as someone who's just like lived this really busy, hurried life, I tend to rush through things. So like when I was performing within the classroom right, doing an improv scene, I would just kind of rush through it, that it's almost. You don't really know what the storyline is. You don't even know what I was doing. Like maybe I was pretending to make coffee and it didn't even show up that way. Yeah, yeah. And I realized it's because like I was just afraid of like taking up too much time or attention and um, I think especially growing up within like an Asian household, I was really taught to like, oh, like be quiet or kind of like. Oh, like when I, when I wasn't too loud that that's, that was like good behavior that was rewarded. And so that was something that just kind of stuck with me. And then now that I've kind of had these experiences, I recognize that like, yeah, we're all worthy of like taking up space and really shining, like everyone has like something that's so unique and special about them that it's like, you should, yeah, try to like really find that thing within yourself and let it shine because it just makes. Brighter and better for everyone else's lives. Yep. Amen to that. Last but not least is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really just wanna hit home as a little bit more advice for anyone listening that's been through the same situation as you recently? yeah. Something that I would recommend is like, definitely. rely on your network. So whether that's like your professional network or your friend's network, but this is like honestly a challenging time for many people, right? And know that you're not alone. You might even be at a company that's a bit smaller and, and maybe you didn't get as big of a severance package, or you don't have. That same support network around, but I'm sure like there must be a your friend or a friend of a friend who's been laid off. And so just even just connect with that person and like check in on each other and like encourage one another as you go through this process because. It is hard and just also, you know, set up a schedule and take breaks, like have a full day off on the weekend or something to recharge so that you can kind of get back on that job hunt the week after. And just, yeah, just, just recognize that you're not alone and that there are people out there who can be there for you during this time. Yeah, good point. Joanna, you've given us so much great advice and encouragement in this episode. So it's now my time to ask what can we give you? I know you're applying for jobs, so for anyone listening to this um, you've already said a couple of the companies that you want to work for, but what are some like job titles that you kind of are looking for so that if anyone's listening to this and they see this title, maybe they can send it? Yeah, definitely. So I am super interested in roles that are around like content marketing lead or like a brand marketing lead. As well as like general marketing manager type of roles. Just feel free to reach out and we'll see if there's a good fit. And if it's not a good fit for me, then I might know someone within my network that I can share it with. Because I think during this time too, it's really important for us to like help each other out. Mm-hmm. I will. Add all of the links so that you can connect with Joanna, add her LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram, and if anyone can help Joanna along her job search, please reach out. Joanna, thank you so much for being so open and vulnerable about talking about what you're going through. Losing a job, whether it's being fired or laid off or anything. It comes with a lot of shame and it really makes you question yourself worth and like, how did I get here? Mm-hmm. Like, I know those are the thoughts that I had when I've been through those situations. So it's inspiring, watching you really just get back on the horse and really explore a lot of different paths that you never would've had the opportunity to do so. Mm-hmm. so just thank you for being so open and being such an inspiration for anyone listening. Oh, thank you. And yeah, thanks for having me on the podcast. It was a lot of fun. You're welcome. Thank you. Did you know that I'm not only a podcast host, but in my full-time career, I met Toronto based real estate agent. If you are someone, you know, is a busy professional looking to get into the Toronto real estate market, I highly recommend reaching out to me. You can go directly to my website@wwwdotjenelletremblant.com. And you can click the let's talk button to book a call with me. I work with buyers, renters, and sellers in the downtown and east end areas. So don't hesitate to reach out to me and I would love to help you find your next home. And in the meantime, we'll see you here back next week.